Discussion:
cmsg newgroup free.chicken
(too old to reply)
Adam H. Kerman
2024-11-23 01:16:29 UTC
Permalink
free.chicken Foghorn Leghorn would like a home.
No tab!

Why didn't Sn!pe post this himself?

Since you're a Marx Brothers fan, why a chicken? Why-a-no duck?
Sn!pe
2024-11-23 07:08:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
free.chicken Foghorn Leghorn would like a home.
No tab!
Why didn't Sn!pe post this himself?
Since you're a Marx Brothers fan, why a chicken? Why-a-no duck?
A moderated group "free.chicken" already existed according to the
newsgroups file at ISC (assuming that I've understood correctly and
I'm reading the correct file). I expected Ray to just create it locally
rather than newgroup it. Am I a surprised duck . . .
--
Post by Adam H. Kerman
^Ï^. Sn!pe, PTB, FIBS My pet rock Gordon just is.
Adam H. Kerman
2024-11-24 02:22:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sn!pe
Post by Adam H. Kerman
free.chicken Foghorn Leghorn would like a home.
No tab!
Why didn't Sn!pe post this himself?
Since you're a Marx Brothers fan, why a chicken? Why-a-no duck?
A moderated group "free.chicken" already existed according to the
newsgroups file at ISC (assuming that I've understood correctly and
I'm reading the correct file). I expected Ray to just create it locally
rather than newgroup it. Am I a surprised duck . . .
Ah. It was one of those self approval groups. Sorry. I should have
looked at the archives.
Sn!pe
2024-12-02 13:18:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by Sn!pe
Post by Adam H. Kerman
free.chicken Foghorn Leghorn would like a home.
No tab!
Why didn't Sn!pe post this himself?
Since you're a Marx Brothers fan, why a chicken? Why-a-no duck?
A moderated group "free.chicken" already existed according to the
newsgroups file at ISC (assuming that I've understood correctly and
I'm reading the correct file). I expected Ray to just create it locally
rather than newgroup it. Am I a surprised duck . . .
Ah. It was one of those self approval groups. Sorry. I should have
looked at the archives.
I've just checked the current newsgroups file at ISC.
Ray's incantation (as above):-

free.chicken Foghorn Leghorn would like a home.

- appears to have overwritten the pre-existing entry:

free.chicken You may waive some dead poultry here (Moderated)

It was the Moderated status of the pre-existing entry that interested
me but it seems to have been swept away by Ray's newgrouping.
Is it normal that existing entries can simply be overwritten?
--
^Ï^. Sn!pe, PTB, FIBS My pet rock Gordon just is.

'Go to the banks of the great, grey-green, greasy Limpopo River,
all set about with fever-trees, and find out.' --R Kipling
Adam H. Kerman
2024-12-02 18:43:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sn!pe
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by Sn!pe
Post by Adam H. Kerman
free.chicken Foghorn Leghorn would like a home.
No tab!
Why didn't Sn!pe post this himself?
Since you're a Marx Brothers fan, why a chicken? Why-a-no duck?
A moderated group "free.chicken" already existed according to the
newsgroups file at ISC (assuming that I've understood correctly and
I'm reading the correct file). I expected Ray to just create it locally
rather than newgroup it. Am I a surprised duck . . .
Ah. It was one of those self approval groups. Sorry. I should have
looked at the archives.
I've just checked the current newsgroups file at ISC.
Ray's incantation (as above):-
free.chicken Foghorn Leghorn would like a home.
free.chicken You may waive some dead poultry here (Moderated)
It was the Moderated status of the pre-existing entry that interested
me but it seems to have been swept away by Ray's newgrouping.
Is it normal that existing entries can simply be overwritten?
It doesn't work like that, sorry. No server that created it as moderator
is likely to change the moderation flag. Unapproved articles won't
propagate to servers that created the moderated group.

However, to the extent that free.* had rules, moderated newsgroups
weren't suppposed to have been newgrouped in the first place.
Ray Banana
2024-12-02 19:33:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by Sn!pe
It was the Moderated status of the pre-existing entry that interested
me but it seems to have been swept away by Ray's newgrouping.
Is it normal that existing entries can simply be overwritten?
It doesn't work like that, sorry. No server that created it as moderator
is likely to change the moderation flag. Unapproved articles won't
propagate to servers that created the moderated group.
IBTD;

/------------------------------------------------------------------------
| 5.2.1. The newgroup Control Message
|
| The newgroup control message requests that the specified group be
| created or, if already existing, that its moderation status or
| description be changed.
\________________________________________________________________________


https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5537.html#section-5.2.1

The sample control configuration for free.* as included in INN2 has;

## FREE (Open Hierarchy where anyone can create a group)
newgroup:*:free.*:doit
newgroup:group-***@isc.org:free.*:drop
newgroup:tale@*uu.net:free.*:drop
rmgroup:*:free.*:drop

so everybody can send an unsigned newgroup control message for the
free.* hierarchy and rmgroup messages are not allowed at all.
free.chicken was originally created on July 21st 1998 and never had much
success, most likely because it was ctreated as a moderated group and
only a handful of insiders knew and had the required access rights to
abuse poultry on the Net.
Post by Adam H. Kerman
However, to the extent that free.* had rules, moderated newsgroups
weren't suppposed to have been newgrouped in the first place.
That is my understanding, too.
--
Пу́тін — хуйло́
https://www.eternal-september.org
Sn!pe
2024-12-02 19:42:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ray Banana
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by Sn!pe
It was the Moderated status of the pre-existing entry that interested
me but it seems to have been swept away by Ray's newgrouping.
Is it normal that existing entries can simply be overwritten?
It doesn't work like that, sorry. No server that created it as moderator
is likely to change the moderation flag. Unapproved articles won't
propagate to servers that created the moderated group.
IBTD;
/------------------------------------------------------------------------
| 5.2.1. The newgroup Control Message
|
| The newgroup control message requests that the specified group be
| created or, if already existing, that its moderation status or
| description be changed.
\________________________________________________________________________
https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5537.html#section-5.2.1
The sample control configuration for free.* as included in INN2 has;
## FREE (Open Hierarchy where anyone can create a group)
newgroup:*:free.*:doit
rmgroup:*:free.*:drop
so everybody can send an unsigned newgroup control message for the
free.* hierarchy and rmgroup messages are not allowed at all.
free.chicken was originally created on July 21st 1998 and never had much
success, most likely because it was ctreated as a moderated group and
only a handful of insiders knew and had the required access rights to
abuse poultry on the Net.
Post by Adam H. Kerman
However, to the extent that free.* had rules, moderated newsgroups
weren't suppposed to have been newgrouped in the first place.
That is my understanding, too.
Thank you Ray and Adam, I think I understand now.
--
^Ï^. Sn!pe, PTB, FIBS My pet rock Gordon just is.

'Go to the banks of the great, grey-green, greasy Limpopo River,
all set about with fever-trees, and find out.' --R Kipling
Adam H. Kerman
2024-12-03 00:26:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ray Banana
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by Sn!pe
It was the Moderated status of the pre-existing entry that interested
me but it seems to have been swept away by Ray's newgrouping.
Is it normal that existing entries can simply be overwritten?
It doesn't work like that, sorry. No server that created it as moderator
is likely to change the moderation flag. Unapproved articles won't
propagate to servers that created the moderated group.
IBTD;
/------------------------------------------------------------------------
| 5.2.1. The newgroup Control Message
|
| The newgroup control message requests that the specified group be
| created or, if already existing, that its moderation status or
| description be changed.
\________________________________________________________________________
https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5537.html#section-5.2.1
I am well aware of that. Nevertheless, no News administrator changes the
moderation flag just because a subsequent newgroup message was sent.

Do you recall having done this yourself?
Post by Ray Banana
The sample control configuration for free.* as included in INN2 has;
## FREE (Open Hierarchy where anyone can create a group)
newgroup:*:free.*:doit
rmgroup:*:free.*:drop
so everybody can send an unsigned newgroup control message for the
free.* hierarchy and rmgroup messages are not allowed at all.
Yes. Such is the nature of an unadministered hierarchy.
Post by Ray Banana
free.chicken was originally created on July 21st 1998 and never had much
success, most likely because it was ctreated as a moderated group and
only a handful of insiders knew and had the required access rights to
abuse poultry on the Net.
Hehehehe
Post by Ray Banana
Post by Adam H. Kerman
However, to the extent that free.* had rules, moderated newsgroups
weren't suppposed to have been newgrouped in the first place.
That is my understanding, too.
Sn!pe
2024-12-02 19:37:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by Sn!pe
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by Sn!pe
Post by Adam H. Kerman
free.chicken Foghorn Leghorn would like a home.
No tab!
Why didn't Sn!pe post this himself?
Since you're a Marx Brothers fan, why a chicken? Why-a-no duck?
A moderated group "free.chicken" already existed according to the
newsgroups file at ISC (assuming that I've understood correctly and
I'm reading the correct file). I expected Ray to just create it locally
rather than newgroup it. Am I a surprised duck . . .
Ah. It was one of those self approval groups. Sorry. I should have
looked at the archives.
I've just checked the current newsgroups file at ISC.
Ray's incantation (as above):-
free.chicken Foghorn Leghorn would like a home.
free.chicken You may waive some dead poultry here (Moderated)
It was the Moderated status of the pre-existing entry that interested
me but it seems to have been swept away by Ray's newgrouping.
Is it normal that existing entries can simply be overwritten?
It doesn't work like that, sorry. No server that created it as moderator
is likely to change the moderation flag. Unapproved articles won't
propagate to servers that created the moderated group.
However, to the extent that free.* had rules, moderated newsgroups
weren't suppposed to have been newgrouped in the first place.
OK, I can see that but I don't properly understand; could you please
point to further reading?
--
^Ï^. Sn!pe, PTB, FIBS My pet rock Gordon just is.

'Go to the banks of the great, grey-green, greasy Limpopo River,
all set about with fever-trees, and find out.' --R Kipling
Ray Banana
2024-12-02 19:43:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sn!pe
OK, I can see that but I don't properly understand; could you please
point to further reading?
I am SHOCKED. You did not read my carefully and diligently crafted reply
to your initial request?

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/free/charter/
--
Пу́тін — хуйло́
https://www.eternal-september.org
Sn!pe
2024-12-02 20:34:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ray Banana
Post by Sn!pe
OK, I can see that but I don't properly understand; could you please
point to further reading?
I am SHOCKED. You did not read my carefully and diligently crafted reply
to your initial request?
<http://www.faqs.org/faqs/free/charter/>
Oops!... I'll go and stand in the corner while I read it again.
. . .
Well, that didn't take too long. It isn't very forthcoming about
the nuts and bolts of how things work but I think I've got the
rough idea now.
--
^Ï^. Sn!pe, PTB, FIBS My pet rock Gordon just is.

'Go to the banks of the great, grey-green, greasy Limpopo River,
all set about with fever-trees, and find out.' --R Kipling
Adam H. Kerman
2024-12-03 00:50:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sn!pe
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by Sn!pe
. . .
I've just checked the current newsgroups file at ISC.
Ray's incantation (as above):-
free.chicken Foghorn Leghorn would like a home.
free.chicken You may waive some dead poultry here (Moderated)
It was the Moderated status of the pre-existing entry that interested
me but it seems to have been swept away by Ray's newgrouping.
Is it normal that existing entries can simply be overwritten?
It doesn't work like that, sorry. No server that created it as moderator
is likely to change the moderation flag. Unapproved articles won't
propagate to servers that created the moderated group.
However, to the extent that free.* had rules, moderated newsgroups
weren't suppposed to have been newgrouped in the first place.
OK, I can see that but I don't properly understand; could you please
point to further reading?
This is my (hopefully) informed opinion based on decades of commenting
in configging discussions. As we've told myriad proponents since Day 1,
newgroup messages don't create newsgroups.

A News administrator like Ray creates a newsgroup.

In unadministered hierarchies like alt.* and free.*, the vast majority
of News administrators created groups upon user request and not
automatically thanks to frequent DOS attacks with overwhelming numbers
of control messages, especially newgroup messages in alt.*. There were
similar attacks in administered hierarchies like the Big 8 which is why
PGP-signed control messages became a thing.

But there's no such thing as a signed control message in an
unadministered hierarchy.

free.* was started some time after alt.* because "alt.* has too many
rules." It never went anywhere.

Then, I think around 1999, skirv entered into negotiations with
Hipcrime, the technical troll active around that time, to stop
committing abuse if free.* were restarted. skirv wrote an FAQ (still
posted on a cron job) announcing that free.* wasn't subject to spam
cancels (based on skirv's earlier spam thresholds FAQ) and wasn't going
to have moderated groups.

skirv was... naive. It didn't end the DOS attacks, especially via the
open proxies that Bell Canada refused to fix. Hipcrime eventually
stopped trolling himself and began committing abuse via Hipclones, other
technical trolls who simply used his software to abuse Usenet.

In the case of free.chicken, someone on a server in which the moderation
flag is set is going to have to request that it be unset. It's just
going to happen.

I don't think you are allowed to post a self-approved article in an
unmoderated group, so articles may propogate to servers in which it
remains a moderated group.

Note that Hipcrime's antics are the reason that Ray uses a two-server
model, a transit server exposed to Usenet and a reader server that his
users read and post from.
Sn!pe
2024-12-03 01:23:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by Sn!pe
Post by Adam H. Kerman
Post by Sn!pe
. . .
I've just checked the current newsgroups file at ISC.
Ray's incantation (as above):-
free.chicken Foghorn Leghorn would like a home.
free.chicken You may waive some dead poultry here (Moderated)
It was the Moderated status of the pre-existing entry that interested
me but it seems to have been swept away by Ray's newgrouping.
Is it normal that existing entries can simply be overwritten?
It doesn't work like that, sorry. No server that created it as moderator
is likely to change the moderation flag. Unapproved articles won't
propagate to servers that created the moderated group.
However, to the extent that free.* had rules, moderated newsgroups
weren't suppposed to have been newgrouped in the first place.
OK, I can see that but I don't properly understand; could you please
point to further reading?
This is my (hopefully) informed opinion based on decades of commenting
in configging discussions. As we've told myriad proponents since Day 1,
newgroup messages don't create newsgroups.
A News administrator like Ray creates a newsgroup.
In unadministered hierarchies like alt.* and free.*, the vast majority
of News administrators created groups upon user request and not
automatically thanks to frequent DOS attacks with overwhelming numbers
of control messages, especially newgroup messages in alt.*. There were
similar attacks in administered hierarchies like the Big 8 which is why
PGP-signed control messages became a thing.
But there's no such thing as a signed control message in an
unadministered hierarchy.
free.* was started some time after alt.* because "alt.* has too many
rules." It never went anywhere.
Then, I think around 1999, skirv entered into negotiations with
Hipcrime, the technical troll active around that time, to stop
committing abuse if free.* were restarted. skirv wrote an FAQ (still
posted on a cron job) announcing that free.* wasn't subject to spam
cancels (based on skirv's earlier spam thresholds FAQ) and wasn't
going to have moderated groups.
skirv was... naive. It didn't end the DOS attacks, especially via the
open proxies that Bell Canada refused to fix. Hipcrime eventually
stopped trolling himself and began committing abuse via Hipclones,
other technical trolls who simply used his software to abuse Usenet.
In the case of free.chicken, someone on a server in which the moderation
flag is set is going to have to request that it be unset. It's just
going to happen.
I don't think you are allowed to post a self-approved article in an
unmoderated group, so articles may propogate to servers in which it
remains a moderated group.
Note that Hipcrime's antics are the reason that Ray uses a two-server
model, a transit server exposed to Usenet and a reader server that his
users read and post from.
Thank you very much for that explanation and history lesson, Adam.
I had no idea that Hipcrime was at the root of this.

Regarding Hipclones: I recall ArjfZnrfgeb being posted in afn and
then used by the likes of the Pembroke Poseur and Crapstain Neal.
I even d/l-ed it myself, just out of curiousity. It made me feel dirty,
so I promptly de-installed it without using it.
--
^Ï^. Sn!pe, PTB, FIBS My pet rock Gordon just is.

'Go to the banks of the great, grey-green, greasy Limpopo River,
all set about with fever-trees, and find out.' --R Kipling
Adam H. Kerman
2024-12-06 15:28:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam H. Kerman
free.chicken Foghorn Leghorn would like a home.
No tab!
Why didn't Sn!pe post this himself?
Since you're a Marx Brothers fan, why a chicken? Why-a-no duck?
I see now why this is a much-needed froup. I was denied access on line
to a business checking account on Monday. It wasn't straighted out till
Thursday.

Some sort of ritual checken-waiving and/or abuse might have straightened
out this mess sooner. Next time, I'll do the more effective thing.
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